Posts by Cold Steel

63

Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars in

check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.

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cedars.

Cold Steel

I'm reading the book, THE TRUTH ABOUT THE TRUTH, by Tami someone, and believe me, we Mormons ain't even on the same block.

3

IDENTIFYING the BUZZWORD: antichrist

by Terry in

know what a "buzzword" is?

it is a word that catches on and creates a lot of attention and conversation (usually opinion).

a religious buzzword would be a popular word everybody uses and has an opinion about.

Cold Steel

Okay, get out your magnifying glass and carefully examine the picture.

Actually, I'll do it for you. Ah-ha, there He is, sitting, or huddled, on the right hand of the Father. As you can see, there's no glory surrounding Him as with the Father. (If the JWs actually knew that Jesus is Jehovah, not Michael, they'd probably make Him a little easier to see!) Speaking of that, the members of the Governing Body are more distinct.

I just want to know how the GOVERNING BODY knows it represents Jehovah as His faithful and wise servant?

3

IDENTIFYING the BUZZWORD: antichrist

by Terry in

know what a "buzzword" is?

it is a word that catches on and creates a lot of attention and conversation (usually opinion).

a religious buzzword would be a popular word everybody uses and has an opinion about.

Cold Steel

Jehovah's Witnesses had a reason to substitute A DIFFERENT Christ from the one expected in scripture. They desperately needed to prop up a failed chronology about End Times. Their teaching would fail if Christ Jesus wasn't invisible. They would be seen as false prophets.

Quite true, though to most Christians, the Antichrist is the Beast of Revelation: a world leader who will consolidate power (probably after the collapse of the United States). Some believe he will come from Russia; others, China. One believes he will come out of Turkey, a revitalized Muslim leader. The hadiths of Muhammad declare that the day of resurrection will not come except they kill the Jews. Many Muslims believe in the coming of the Mahdi, a world leader who will lead them against the Jews. He will be accompanied by none other than Jesus Christ, who will reveal himself to Christians as the Messiah, but NOT the Son of God. Christians who resist him will be put to the sword. He will convert many through miracles.

The Bible prophesies that the Beast will come, and he will be accompanied by a "false prophet" who will perform miracles and convert many. They will go to war with Judah in Jerusalem, and will be held at bay by two prophets whom the Lord will raise. This last battle will be Armageddon.

This Beast is the so-called "Antichrist" that Christians expect. Of course there are other antichrists (small "A"), but I doubt that the Jehovah's Witnesses are important enough in the scheme of things to make much of a difference in world events.

63

Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars in

check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.

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cedars.

Cold Steel

All the wealth of info on this site and you can’t see how warped your similar religion is... I feel bad for you.

In what way? Do you think the ancient Christians were warped? What religion isn't warped? First, Mormonism is not similar to the Jehovah’s Witnesses in any way, shape or form. Yes, we both have hierarchal structures, and we both believe we were established by God; however, there the similarities end.

I don't know for a fact that this is all there is, but even if it is, that knowledge makes life all the more precious and to throw it away would be a terrible waste.

Throw it away? Without a God it’s already thrown away. The second you’re dead, everything ceases to exist from your standpoint. Everything you experienced, everything you learned, thought about or attained to comes to absolutely nothing. All the enjoyment you gleaned from life, all the despair, achievements, wisdom—everything—is meaningless.

I suppose it's a failure of imagination on your part to imagine an atheist could be happy, even though I am happy. To me, the prospect of eternal night is more attractive than the prospect of eternal life, which is probably a failure of imagination on my part.

Yes to both. You may be happy now, but don’t think that atheism doesn’t cause its own cognitive dissonance. When one sees the complexity, beauty and order in the Universe and is exposed to the endless possibilities of what was, what is, and what is ahead, he realizes his wisdom is as nothing. As one ancient prophet noted, “all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion...and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.” If God can deliver on his promise of eternal happiness, and everlasting progress and power (glory), isn’t that better than eternal night?

Is Mormonism a cult as described by Londo111?

I clicked on the links, above, and read the article that says, yes, Mormonism is a cult and, surprise, the article is written by a former Mormon. Since I can’t accuse her as ignorant, I must, by elimination, accuse her of intentionally lying. The following is her list of what comprises, to her, a cult. But since I don’t see “American Heritage Dictionary” engraved on her forehead, we’ll just take a look at her definitions as follows. BTW, she is vocal in questioning whether there is a God, so she might agree with some of my responses.

The group is focused on a living leader to whom members display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.

Just like first century Christianity

The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

Just like first century Christianity

The group is preoccupied with making money.

Just like first century Christianity’s “tithing.” The LDS church is known for its generosity in sending relief to disasters all over the world. We also have our own welfare system, so our members are discouraged from using government monies.

Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

Of course, questioning and doubt are considered negative, but no one is punished unless they come out in open rebellion. Even then, the church works with such people, extending as much latitude as possible. In the end, the individual member decides whether he stays or goes. I would also speculate that the same was true of the ancient church.

Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

Uh-huh. She includes prayer as “meditation.” The LDS church uses none of the above. I suspect this is a potshot at early Christianity as well.

The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).

None of this applies to us. Our leaders give counsel, which we admittedly follow. After all, to us they are apostles of Jesus Christ. The rest simply does not apply to us. I don’t know why she includes it unless she’s including the Jehovah's Witnesses in her little definition of “cult.”

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).

Just like first century Christianity.

The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.

Again, she’s thinking of someone else. Robert Millett works with evangelical and protestant churches, and Dan Peterson is working with Muslims to preserve their most sacred writings and poetry. We’ve also worked closely with the Catholic Church on the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi Library and other ancient documents. Hard to believe, but most people like Mormons. Maybe they didn’t get the memo.

The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).

Just like first century Christianity.

Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.

Hmmm...again, wrong cult. We have non-LDS friends, go to Christmas and birthday parties, office lunches and even date outside the church, though it’s discouraged. My wife in non-LDS and I’m a fully active member and don’t have to hide in a closet at church.

Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

See the comment above.

So that’s it. If the author considers ancient Christianity a cult, we have to plead guilty. Ancient Christianity was established by God through Jesus Christ. So was “Mormonism.” The ancient church had an open canon of scripture. So do we. The ancient church had apostles and prophets called and ordained by God. So do we. The ancient church believes in prophecy and revelation. Same here. The ancient church sent out missionaries. So do we. The ancient church received offerings by its members. So do we. I could go on, but why take it further?

A person could write a book replying to this nonsense.

63

Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars in

check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.

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cedars.

Cold Steel

Your parenting has provided him with a decent temporal outlook, but has robbed him of a spiritual foundation that provides a meaning in life.

Atheism dictates that there may be a tomorrow, but there's nothing down the road but sickness, age and death. I can't argue that someone who is an atheist should provide their children with a spiritual base, while believing it to be untrue. That would be hypocritical. But I can't imagine that any atheist could be happy in the prospect of an eternal night. On the one hand, the cure to anyone's troubles is only a gunshot away, but on the other, to go to sleep every night and wake up every morning thinking that this is all there is.

Too many religions view God as a completely supernatural being, the only one of his kind. This makes little sense to me. To think that God wills things into existance out of nothing is understandably difficult to buy from a scientific standpoint. To me, God is a revealed being. You discount my beliefs, just as I discount your beliefs, yet you go further in being openly contemptuous of what I believe and label it as "mind control." My mind, being thus controlled, I then try to control the minds of others (as you see it). But I have an expectation of an eternal future, not limited by time, space or power...and a purpose. God doesn't have spiritual offspring only to put them in a crummy garden forever; rather, he expects his offspring to become like him in every sense of the word, and to become one with him.

Since there's no point in debating atheism, we can only argue what comprises mind control. God commands that we teach our children to believe and to trust in him. We teach them, nurture them, baptize them and give them a foundation, first in hope, then in knowledge. For any man or woman can ultimately know God. But they can't pass that knowledge to you. In short, it's better to be tolerant and open. Many atheists would seize control of children from parents and use the state to ensure that no mind control is exercised.

53

What exactly was going on after Jesus was put to death and no longer around?

by Terry in

the jesus believers were meeting in people's homes.

members of that community would take turns using private homes to gather.

thus, they went house to house.. these footstep tracers of jesus (they called themselves akolouthontes "followers" or some called themselves mathetai or "learners.

Cold Steel

Well, you're correct that many of the originals were tampered with, and you're correct about the early Christians having an open canon; however, after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared to the apostles and many disciples. The apostles also organized congregations, ordained bishops and attempted to standardize doctrine (as the epistles indicate). But in those days the news was bleak:

In a standard 40-day situation the apostles, deeply worried, ask the Lord what lies ahead for them and their work, and receive an appalling reply: They are to be rejected by all men and take their violent exit from the world, what time corrupters and false shepherds will appear within the church, where a growing faction of the worldly-minded will soon overcome and annihilate what remains of the faithful saints. The sheep turn into wolves as the Wintertime of the just settles down the lights go out and the long age of darkness begins under the rule of the Cosmoplanes, disastrously usurping the authority of Christ. There is indeed a promise of comfort and joy, but it is all on the other side and in the distant return of the Lord. The apostles protest, as we do today: Is this a time for speaking of death and disaster? Can all that has transpired be but for the salvation of a few and the condemnation of many? But Jesus remains unyielding: that is not for us to decide or to question. The grim picture is confirmed by the Apostolic Fathers, who are convinced that they are beholding the fulfillment of these very prophecies, and are driven by a tragic sense of urgency and finality. After them the early patristic writers accept the pattern with heavy reluctance, and only the surprising and unexpected victory of the church in the fourth century enable Eusebius's generation to turn the tables and discredit the whole pessimistic tradition. (Dr. Hugh Nibley, Evangelium Quadraginta Dierum: The Forty-day Mission of Christ—The Forgotten Heritage)

Later churchmen placed the apostasia ahead of them and looked with dread for the fulfillment. As for the apostasy itself, it did not come from the outside in, but from the inside out. Congregations began vying with the apostles to elect their own bishops rather than have them appointed from the top down. There also were disputations about basic doctrines like the resurrection and the atonement. One scholar writes: "By the early second century, Christianity had fragmented into dozens of splinter groups with each group charging that the other possessed both forged and corrupted texts." In other words, when the apostles were dead and there was no more inspired leadership, wolves entered the fold, not sparing the flock.

But does this undermine original Christianity? We know that whatever state the Christians were in in the first century, the apostolic leaders were able to warn them to get out of Jerusalem by revelation and "stand in holy places" like Pella, to the north. When the Romans caught the Jews wholly off guard and quickly surrounded them, the Christians were long gone.

10

Anyone with a Mormon background? Wedding with a non-believer.

by jam in

ok here's the deal.

i posted previous about my son and his mormon girlfriend.

well they are now planning to get married.. can a mormon elder ( not sure what they are called) perform the marriage or will he.

Cold Steel

So there you are at the festivities. Dinner had not been served, so your daughter approaches you and says that dinner cannot be served unless you leave. Your JW buddy is overseeing the reception and your daughter is apparently passing on a message. When you leave, your non-JW family left, too. Why was that? And why would they not serve dinner while you were there?

Was it because of your non-JW family who left with you? Did they understand they weren't welcome? When you guys left the reception, was dinner served to the remaining Jehovah's Witnesses?

What would have happened had you and your family refused to leave? The Branch Overseer was obviously the one who issued the order, but what right did he have to do so? Is it that he didn't want non-JWs at the feast?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is of great interest to me. My JW family members, when they joined the Society (the whole lot of them) just cut off all contact with us after they were baptized. I can only surmise they were ordered to do so.

No wonder the ex-JWs here are so ticked off! It makes me furious even hearing about it.

63

Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars in

check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.

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cedars.

Cold Steel

While this is clearly a horrible form of mind control, I see absolutely no similarity between this video and the way the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) operates. On the other hand, we do teach our children Christian values. "Yeah, your Christian values," some say, but in that respect ALL religions (cults) do the same thing. So my question to the ex-Mormon who saw the same "mind control" techniques by the video used in the LDS church, is: In what way? Is teaching people that they must live by certain standards to gain eternal life mind control?

What about first century Christian cult? Did it practice mind control? What of the miracles, the visions, the ministration of angels? Were these things the result of mind control? If so, we're simply arguing religion v. atheism.

Cofty: The only people who don't think Mormonism is a manipulative cult are Mormons.

As James Garner said in Support Your Local Sheriff, "Sometimes you make me tired all over."

Erbie: That poor, wretched child in the animation. They have even managed to make him look stressed and unhappily weighed down like a real Witness child.

They must have loved the Harry Potter movies! It's even more ironic that it was produced by the JWs. I almost felt more sorry for the mother than the child. If the kid had said, "Did I say it was a warrior wizard? No, I meant it was a warrior lizard. Jehovah likes lizards!

My wife is an ex-Muslim. She said that in Iran the government does the same sort of things in schools. They use dolls with long hair and discuss what Allah wants women to do with their hair. Allah is "happy" or "pleased" when women cover themselves and is unhappy when women show their hair. Despite this, most of the little girls subjected to this crap grow up to push restrictions whenever they can. My wife's cousin, years ago, stepped outside to pick up the newspaper. A neighbor saw her and reported her to the "brothers." She was taken to some kind of a re-education center. As a first-time offender, she wasn't treated harshly. BUT...there were others who were beaten with hollow instruments of some kind and were crying. My wife's father was an ex-judge and got her out. Things are getting a little better there now, but the mind control techniques seem similar, but not terribly effective.

63

Sparlock is helping Mormons

by cedars in

check out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.

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cedars.

Cold Steel

The precepts in this video, which, by the way is in itself highly manipulative (listen to the sinister music, the one-sided approach, uneven generalities) and words like “enslaved” — all designed to lead people away from religion and justify their own selfish desires and thoughts. One reason we have scriptures is to condition our minds to conform with the counsel God gives through his prophets.

Is this “mind control”? What do you think? Couldn’t Hassan’s formulas be applied to early Christianity as well as Mormonism?

First, here are my primary criticisms of the Jehovah's Witnesses:

Ritualistic shunning. Elders and Overseers can determine who is subject to snubbing. Since members are counseled to only associate with Jehovah's Witnesses, shunning cuts off members from friends and family. It’s unscriptural and not representative of what Christ taught about forgiveness and love.

No revelation or apostolic authority. Even the members of the Governing Body admit that they do not enjoy the ministry of angels, visions, the gift of healing and other spiritual gifts that were lost in the ancient church. They claim to receive “light,” but what is light if not revelation?

Forbidding study of other religions. This is manipulative and unscriptural, and keeps members from straying by reading alternative theologies. Disciplinary action can be taken against those who violate this directive.

Discouragement of higher education. No comment necessary.

Disciplinary power of elders. Acting more like school principals prowling the halls, they have enormous power of manipulation and punishment. They form cliques of power and are often petty, vindictive and arbitrary.

No relationships outside the Society. This means no friendships or associations outside the Society, and this is extremely manipulative in that greatly helps the efficiency of disciplinary action such as ritualistic shunning and disfellowshiping.

There are many more, but Mormonism has few parallels to the Jehovah's Witness mind controls as described in this video. In fact, most Latter-day Saint parents would have let the kid have his toy and, thus, the video would not have resonated with them.

I wasn’t raised in the church but am a convert. My path was determined by my spiritual insistence that if God lives, and if he is the same yesterday, today and forever, then I reasoned that any organization claiming to be of God must be established by God, and must have divine authority, the same as it’s always been. So I wasn’t subjected to being taught its doctrines all my life.

Cognitive dissonance are two of the latest and greatest buzzwords used by secular humanists against those with faith in any religion. Ironically, it’s also a term used by members of one church against the members of other churches. Secular humanism, however, contends that only by relieving one’s self from the burdens of religious superstition can one balance one’s thoughts and emotions with one’s behavior. In other words, religion is a conviction in an unprovable personal or institutionalized belief system, often established and reinforced by others with an agenda.

The video, above, is, in my opinion, a classic form of deception. In college, I took a course on U.S., German and Soviet propaganda films produced before, during and after the war. In one U.S. film, an American couple traveling through Europe saw American and Allied soldiers marching by and remarked on how heroic they looked. Later in the film, when watching a contingent of German soldiers marching by, the same woman observed how merciless and mean they appeared. But both were simply soldiers. A German watching the film may have found that the Nazi soldiers were the heroic looking ones. But American audiences were, and still are, manipulated by their leaders, with or without the help of Hollywood.

The JW video is a way of reinforcing their views on the young, which every religion does to an extent. Ancient Israelites were expected to raise their children in the faith so as to not be a part of the profligate religions of their day. And though I find many parts of JW doctrine to be backward and openly opposed to the teachings of the Savior, I can only defend my own faith in regards to this video. What, in fact, do the makers of this video believe the LDS people should do? Teach their children nothing until they can make up their own minds?

Mormons aren’t restricted to only LDS relationships. They’re not only attracted to higher education, they’re strongly encouraged to pursue it! There are no restrictions against reading the religious literature of other churches. When someone apostatizes, we don’t shun them, but try to win them back with love. In fact, in a published revelation to Joseph Smith in 1839, the Lord specifically states:

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned. By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy; that he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death. Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God....

What bothers me about the video is that it has just as much of an agenda as any church, and were I to leave Mormonism, it would destroy the balance between my thoughts, emotions and behavior. I find the precepts of Christ to be worthy of dedicating my life to, and I would have no problems teaching my children those precepts from a very early age and baptizing them at the age of eight.

I suffer no pangs of cognitive dissonance in my life, but I suspect if you were to ask these “mind control” experts, all religion is mind manipulation. President Wilford Woodruff, fourth president of the LDS church, stated: “I would to God that [men] would repent, that their eyes might be opened to see their condition; but the devil has power over them; he rules the children of men....” Speaking of the tribulations that are going to overtake the world, he added, “I know it by the revelations of Jesus Christ; I know it by the visions of heaven; I know it by the administrations of angels, and I know it by the inspiration of heaven that is given to each all men who seek the Lord: and the hand of God will not stay these things.” The Jehovah's Witnesses ask for loyalty to be given to the Governing Body, yet they have no visions of heaven; they have no ministration of angels; the only thing they claim is the inspiration of heaven, and they carefully avoid making any statements that would place them in an apostolic position.

Bottom line is that yes, the Jehovah's Witnesses use horrible manipulation and mind control techniques. But Mormonism, so called, is based on entirely different claims. The Governing Body does not claim revelation from heaven, but it does take upon itself divine authority that has never been given it. The LDS church, on the other hand, does claim visions, healings, the raising of the dead, the ministration of angels, just as the ancient Christians. Part of the foundation of the church also is free agency, which God gives to all men. So the entire mind control issue only holds true if the claims of the church are not true.

10

Anyone with a Mormon background? Wedding with a non-believer.

by jam in

ok here's the deal.

i posted previous about my son and his mormon girlfriend.

well they are now planning to get married.. can a mormon elder ( not sure what they are called) perform the marriage or will he.

Cold Steel

Thanks Jefft: yes I’m bracing for the worst...I’m afraid of an embarrassing reception.

One buffet table for JW’s and one for Mormons.

Nonsense. I don’t think you have a thing to worry about. Mormons are well behaved, they don’t steal food nor do they start religious arguments. Qcmbr is a former, and quite bitter, member of the LDS church, and he lost no opportunity in bringing up superfluous points designed to portray Mormons as being socially inept and iconoclastic. Even though there is no temple marriage involved here, he couldn’t refrain from bringing it up so he could refer to the church as a “stupid cult.”

Qcmbr warned, “You may get the odd mormon (sic) loudly mentioning something....” Something?? What we’re not exactly told, just be ready for an odd Mormon kook doing something ridiculous and embarrassing. It reminds me of Dan Peterson’s story about a thread on an ex-Mormon website “discussing how Mormons noisily slurp their soup in restaurants.”

Again, you shouldn’t have any problems. But be aware that anyone can be an uncultured boor at a party, and their religion really has nothing to do with it—unless you’re talking snake handlers. The fiancé of my wife’s nephew found a sale on lip balm during the Christmas holidays. She subsequently showed up with him at a party thrown by my wife’s aunt (an atheist), and attempted to sell the lip balm to the party guests at a hefty profit. She wasn’t a Mormon, or a Jehovah's Witness; she was just a kook. She’d never met any of those guests, either. First impressions.

That's great no problems with Mormons, but JW's that's another story, LOL. If they show up for the reception I will not leave when dinner is served (they ask me to leave at my JW daughter reception).

Wow...can you relate that story? Who asked you to leave at your JW daughter’s reception? The KH elders? What did they tell you?